Modest is Hottest?

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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Latrans on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:35 am

Re: Dude with note
Score one (1) point for addressing the issue directly.

Reduced score one hundred (100) points for doing it in such an impersonal and almost degrading manner.
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If anyone is interested

Post  Ellen-Natalie on Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:21 am

Sarah's letter is inspired by an article I read at this link
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Cutekitty on Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:36 am

Ellen-Natalie wrote:Sarah's letter is inspired by an article I read at this link

O_O Wow. That's... um... I actually don't know how to react. xD It's always interesting to hear about how you're able to draw on real life, though.

I wonder, has Chad been giving Mariah a hard time over the incident with Vikki? Still? If that's the case, that's really not cool. But I'd better wait and see what all Mariah has to say. *steeples fingers*
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Trevor_Fox on Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:09 pm

The cat was so nervous about handing that letter over that he grew an extra finger!
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Ellen-Natalie on Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:46 pm

Trevor_Fox wrote:The cat was so nervous about handing that letter over that he grew an extra finger!

*laugh*
It's common thing. You're nervous, sweaty palms, and then suddenly another finger shoots out of your hand...
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  LadyKaden on Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:53 pm

Ooh! Ooh! Fix idea: Just add another finger to the first hand. He'd have big fluffy paws if he was a real kitty. ... Back to lurking.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  kanna172003 on Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:55 pm

Ellen-Natalie wrote:Sarah's letter is inspired by an article I read at this link

Sheesh, how much modest can you get short of wearing a burka or a nun's habit?
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Mr. Cardinal on Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:16 am

And now they all wear sexy black dresses and become friends again? Right? Razz
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Page 378 Sneak Peak

Post  Ellen-Natalie on Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:23 am



Page 378: Sorry, Mariah - you're too big to fit in the car
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Latrans on Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:21 pm

So... what do you suppose the possibility is that Chad is being a bit put off by Mariah's attempts at being the ideal Mormon lady? Sensing the growing distance, Mariah then tries harder to achieve the ideal which only serves to distance herself from Chad even more in a rather vicious cycle.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  kanna172003 on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:17 pm

Latrans wrote:So... what do you suppose the possibility is that Chad is being a bit put off by Mariah's attempts at being the ideal Mormon lady? Sensing the growing distance, Mariah then tries harder to achieve the ideal which only serves to distance herself from Chad even more in a rather vicious cycle.

O.O I didn't even think about!
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Page 378

Post  Ellen-Natalie on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:25 am

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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Legalien on Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:16 am

I knew it. The way Mariah acted screamed of being subjected to being pressured and emotionally manipulated (if not abused).

Okay, before anyone says I'm jumping to conclusions, let me explain why I think this: yes, Mariah's decision to go on a mission and send in her papers is a decision that she would have been considerate to have discussed with Chad so that this wouldn't have surprised and hurt him. He had valid points in asking why she didn't talk to him (as they are a couple and he seemed to be preparing to propose to her) and that he might not want to propose to someone before they're gone for over a year (as people change over a year, and that's even more true of people who go on missions). HOWEVER, he crossed a serious line and became emotionally manipulative and borderline abusive when he said "important to YOU. Did you even think about what's important to...ME? ... You're the one being selfish!"

Now, I will admit that Chad might not be emotionally abusive, but those last two statements are HUGE red flags of an abusive and controlling personality much of the time. I'll allow for Chad having been thrown for a loop by the news and reacting out of hurt before he calms down and acts rationally (if this was a one-time occurrence). On the other hand, if he's kept the attitude shown in this flashback up, that's another story. Here's why:

It's safe to assume that Chad's a couple of years older than Mariah (as before the historic General Conference announcement lowering the minimum age restrictions on missionaries, men were 19 or older and women were 21 and older to go on LDS missions), since Mariah gives off the vibe of being someone who wouldn't even consider dating any guy who's not a returned missionary. Since Chad's older and has (likely) been on a mission, he would have the life experience to know how a mission changes a person. He's also old enough to handle this sort of news calmly and maturely without being emotionally manipulative. Mariah really doesn't strike me as being older than 19 at most, which means she'd still be fairly immature and inexperienced and could be more inclined to think of only how things affect her, rather than the big picture (which actually would indicate that she's not mature enough to get married yet). A guy who's an RM and in love with a girl should be able to see that a mission would help her grow up. If he's in love with her, he should want what's best for her and be willing to take the time to explain why he's shocked and hurt by being excluded from the decision, but still be supportive (and ideally would see that the time could make her more prepared to be a good partner and eternal companion). Chad doesn't strike me as being that way, based on what little we've seen of him.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Cutekitty on Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:45 am

...Wow. Okay, I am REALLY not liking Chad.

Should Mariah have informed him before she submitted her papers and stuff? Perhaps, it is the sort of big decision that one should probably talk about with loved ones. But Mariah is 100% right, it's HER decision, NOT his, and he should respect her autonomy and be supportive. It's her life. She has the ultimate say in what she does.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Guest on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:00 pm

Right then. This most recent page stayed in my head for some time today, and seeing as my guess was right and there is already plenty of support for Mariah, so I'm going to offer an alternate view.

It is very true that this is her decision, her right, yadda yadda. Something I think deserves mention, however, is the fact that her decisions about what to do with her life do affect the lives of others. Just as she has the right to decide what to do what she wants and what she needs, others DO have the right to respond to the way their lives are impacted. Assuming that his relationship is a big part of his life, in a very real way she is simply informing him that he'll be putting his life on hold for however long she needs. Should he, if he loves her, be willing to wait so as to support her? Of course. But the thing is, it's not necessarily that she is leaving so much as the fact that she didn't think it important to discuss it with him first.

It's easy to say 'well, it's her life' and thus suggest she doesn't need to say anything to him. But the thing is, I'm not claiming she needed permission, and it is entirely possible to go ahead with her decision after getting his input. It's a matter of showing that she cares about at least having that input, and knowing how he feels. Dismissing that completely, and then being surprised that he would even want his feeling considered in the first place - why shouldn't he get upset? Why would he be a bad person if that hurt him?

Once again, yes, it's her decision, and her life. But how we choose to act out our rights has an impact on others. The way she did in this case suggests, from one point of view anyway, that she does not consider him worth thinking about, or his feelings worth even knowing. And he has every right to choose how to live HIS life, even if that means choosing not to spend it with someone who he sees as happy enough to dismiss him lightly. Being supportive must not mean that his emotions are invalid, even evil, any time they contradict hers.

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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Latrans on Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:24 pm

I'm withholding judgement on Chad until I get to know him better. Yes, this scene paints him in a terrible light, but it is also going to be tainted by a lack of context (we've not seen him before) and by the fact that we are seeing it through the memories/description of a person with close emotional ties to the incident so depictions are not as likely to be accurate.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  LadyKaden on Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:26 am

It's really hard not to see his side of the story here. Alternative views and how others see what happens vs the reality is a very prominent part of this story arc. I feel it's not over until we see Chad's side.

That said, both parties here are or have been unreasonable.

Judging by how excited Mariah was that she could go on mission two years sooner than she thought, it's probably not something she's spoken lightly on wanting to do before. Knowing it was something his girlfriend wanted to do, Chad should have been much more receptive, even with it being a surprise. It was something she wanted, and pulling the "What about me?!" card hurts and is a controlling line, despite actually intent.

Mariah also should have told him. The first time we're introduced to her, she mentions her and Chad were going to have heir DTR talk. This makes her relationship very high on importance to her. With the mission, when Vikki asked if they were ready right now to go, Mariah said she had a lot of preparation to do. Part of that should've been talking to Chad. She had at the very least a few months to do that, and seems to go out with him at least once a week, so there had to be a time to bring it up. Of course he's going to be upset if in all that time she said nothing about getting her papers ready.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Cutekitty on Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:42 am

...Ah... You all raise good points. I suppose I'd had a gut reaction to what may have well been an understandable gut reaction by Chad, particularly if they had made explicit plans to start married life soon. I think I also assumed they wouldn't actually marry for a couple of years anyway just because they're still young and in college and stuff, but especially in this culture, and especially with what Chad said about proposing before Mariah left, that's not a reasonable assumption to make. ^^;

I do wonder precisely what happened between them on that double date night, though.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Ellen-Natalie on Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:58 am

Cutekitty wrote: I think I also assumed they wouldn't actually marry for a couple of years anyway just because they're still young and in college and stuff, but especially in this culture, and especially with what Chad said about proposing before Mariah left, that's not a reasonable assumption to make.

If it helps puts things in perspective, my husband's and my wedding was seven months after he officially proposed - approx. double the average engagement period of most couples in our area.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Rubin_West on Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:38 pm

To put this in perspective maybe we need to look at it taking the religion aspect out.
Outside of the Mormon religion if this were to happen the conversation might sound like this: "I've decided I'm moving back to Boston to live with my parents and drop out of school for a year and a half, and ive already bought my plane ticket."
then the rest of the conversation goes on as normal.
If I were Chad I would probably be a little hurt as well because her decision was only made because they changed the age requirement otherwise she would have left when she was 21. So she made a rash decision without consulting someone who she had just had A "define the relationship" conversation with shortly before. Mariah is very independent it seems , and put her mission above her relationship. Not saying necessary this is good or bad, but she didn't seem to take chads feelings into account before simply putting the paperwork in. Granted she has the freedom to do so but to me it just didn't seem very considerate. This is also a call back to the earlier comic where the age requirement was changed and she was excited because she said "now I can go on my mission earlier!" Just my 2 cents. *Shrugs*  Smile

-Rubin.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Legalien on Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:53 pm

Rubin_West wrote:To put this in perspective maybe we need to look at it taking the religion aspect out.


-Rubin.

Whoo boy. Okay. Before I say anything else I'd like to throw out a reminder that while I feel that Chad was being emotionally manipulative and pressuring Mariah to back out of going on a mission in the flashback we saw, I am also allowing for him being shocked, hurt, and just acting on his gut reaction rather than his actions being a pattern of behavior that indicates abuse. I have said that he has valid points, and that Mariah would have been considerate to talk to him before sending in her papers, but she comes across as really young, and let's face it: most people who are in their late teens (especially those who are out on their own for the first time, which could easily be the case with Mariah based on how she displaced blame and aggression and had that fight with Sarah) tend to say 'well it's my life and my decision!' They forget or don't even consider how their actions will affect others. With that said, I'm going to take another perspective that might put this into perspective as well, one from the LDS POV.

If the gender roles were swapped, and Chad were the one saying that he'd decided to go on a mission and Mariah had been the one planning on a future together, would this even be a discussion (let's just say for the sake of this argument that Chad was an LDS convert and had just become eligible to go on a mission, but he and Mariah are both around 21)? For those from LDS backgrounds, I'm pretty sure the answer would be 'no' to some degree. In fact, let's swap lines from the panels, shall we?

Mariah: You're going on a mission?
Chad: Yes, I mailed in the application today.
Mariah: And you didn't talk to me about it?
Chad: Why should I? It's my decision.
Mariah: Because I thought you wanted to get married.
Chad: I do. We can get married after my mission.
Mariah: Maybe I don't want promise myself to you right before you leave for over a year. (yes, I tweaked this line to make it gender-role appropriate)
Chad: Mariah, this is important to me! Why can't you be more supportive?
Mariah: Important to YOU. Did you even think about what's important to US? Or ME?
Chad: How can you be so selfish about this?
Mariah: YOU'RE the one being selfish!

That kind of changes things up a bit, doesn't it? You see, from an LDS perspective, every young man should serve a mission. It's optional for women (though they are encouraged to go). Therefore, if a guy chose to go and his girlfriend threw a fit about it, the girlfriend would be seen as selfish and really cast as a villain among the guy's circle of friends/family/etc if word got out about the fight and what the girlfriend had said (may I direct you to what happened to Ronnie once word got out among her LDS "friends" that her LDS best friend Hayden wrote to her asking her to stop writing because she was a "temptation that he couldn't worry about" right then).

That being said, YES Mariah should have talked to Chad about it if only out of respect for him being her boyfriend (after all, DTR doesn't exclusively mean 'engaged or breaking up'. It can also mean 'are we a couple and seeing each other exclusively or are we seeing other people too'.) Her decision does impact his life. All the same, IF Chad has kept this sort of attitude up since the flashback occurred, then it crosses into the line of being iffy territory (is this a pattern of controlling behavior, and could it escalate to worse than pressure and manipulation?). Either way, both Chad and Mariah could have handled this whole situation better.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Rubin_West on Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:44 pm

"YES Mariah should have talked to Chad about it if only out of respect for him being her boyfriend"
That was my only point entirely. Smile
Other than that I'm kinda holding back till I know more about Chad, but I do like your thourough analysis it's an interesting take!  Smile
I'm also LDS Smile
When I went on my mission I purposfully let all my relationships go many months before I went.
For me I couldn't nor wouldn't even think of putting someone in that sort of situation and I think that worked for me.
I wouldn't say it works for everyone, and I served with several missionaries male and female who had people waiting for them back home and they returned and married them. I also knew a few who were dear Johned though...  Shocked

-Rubin.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Latrans on Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:48 am

Trimmed for brevity, not trying to take things out of context.
Legalien wrote:If the gender roles were swapped...

That kind of changes things up a bit, doesn't it?

To answer the question, no it doesn't. I honestly don't see a difference in the dialog. For example, if it were a prospective business venture rather than marriage being discussed this could just as realistically be a conversation between any two people. To suggest that how people react should differ based solely on their gender is not just a little sexist and, frankly, rather insulting. In the proposed reversal, Mariah would have just as much cause to be upset as Chad over the issue. It's her life too and just because she was born with a pair of ovaries does not change how much of a say she should have in running it. From what we've seen, they are both in the wrong in some way so I am still withholding judgement there, but to suggest that one of their opinions/decisions holds more weight based on gender is simply revolting.

No, I am not LDS. Nor do I particularly care for the way the church segregates its male and female member's positions and duties. However, that isn't particularly my business and I generally keep my nose out of it. Suggesting that one gender is somehow subservient to the other is another matter entirely. Suggesting further that such views are a commonly held and supported belief makes me rather upset.

Maybe this post is a bit heavy handed, but you seem to have found a surprisingly sore spot.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  LadyKaden on Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:33 am

This is the least time I've spent not really lurking over 24 hours...

I'm just going to add on, there's a great story telling technique used on this page. Of Chad, we've now only seen the back of his head, the lower part of his face, and his hand. Seeing the full of someone's face, or at the least their eyes, gives a sense of connection and sympathy. With this layout, we're more easily able to side of Mariah in most or full. This is probably what has helped fuel this debate so well. Kudos, Ellen-Natalie!

I really think we'll have a more formal introduction of him soon with his side of things.
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Re: Modest is Hottest?

Post  Rubin_West on Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:51 am

LadyKaden wrote:This is the least time I've spent not really lurking over 24 hours...

I'm just going to add on, there's a great story telling technique used on this page. Of Chad, we've now only seen the back of his head, the lower part of his face, and his hand. Seeing the full of someone's face, or at the least their eyes, gives a sense of connection and sympathy. With this layout, we're more easily able to side of Mariah in most or full. This is probably what has helped fuel this debate so well. Kudos, Ellen-Natalie!

I really think we'll have a more formal introduction of him soon with his side of things.

HEAR HEAR! Bravo! I totally agree!

I must add however, that technique can also *Gulp* be used for a character that might not be around for long as well... Sad
Again suspense, drama, and anticipation, all great hallmarks of awesome storytelling! cheers

Also just a note: Using deduction, and hints from Mrs. Natalie, I am guessing Chad's species is a Chipmunk! It's wonderful to see all the different types of furs in this comic! *ahem* That is, if I have guessed correctly. LOL.

-Rubin.
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